<\/a>cerutty fan, on , said:<\/p> <\/a>DougB, on , said:<\/p> <\/a>DougB, on , said:<\/p> <\/a>DougB, on , said:<\/p> <\/a>Scott Joerger, on , said:<\/p> <\/a>King999, on , said:<\/p> <\/a>Greg Beal, on , said:<\/p> <\/a>Scott Joerger, on , said:<\/p> <\/a>King999, on , said:<\/p> <\/a>Mike Newman, on , said:<\/p> <\/a>palimmer, on , said:<\/p> <\/a>palimmer, on , said:<\/p> <\/a>watchout, on , said:<\/p> <\/a>watchout, on , said:<\/p> <\/a>Greg Beal, on , said:<\/p>
<\/div><\/div>
\n
\nThese are the two I saw which was right after the state final: http:\/\/usa.milesplit...\/3#.VH4D_fnF8aY<\/a>","date_added":"Dec 2nd 2014, 6:34pm","nest":0,"liked":false,"member":{"wally_id":"388","email_settings":"8191","email":"scott.joerger@gmail.com","address":"ScottJoerger","gender":"m","member_id":"4588","member_name":"Scott Joerger","avatar_location":"av-4588.jpg","avatar_type":"upload","avatar":"\/\/www.runnerspace.com\/forum\/uploads\/av-4588.jpg"},"can_delete":false,"item_id":302788,"item_type":"news","pb_image":"\/\/www.runnerspace.com\/forum\/uploads\/av-4588.jpg","pb_title":"Scott Joerger","pb_url":"profile.php?member_id=4588","pb_url_dns":"https:\/\/ScottJoerger.runnerspace.com\/","pb_wally_id":"388"},"1182400":{"pb_id":"44418","pb_type":"members","likes":"0","parent_id":"0","pid":"1182400","comment_id":"1182400","member_id":"44418","comment":"I think this is the interview that people are talking about:
\n
\nhttp:\/\/usa.milesplit...no#.VH4AYTHF8To<\/a>","date_added":"Dec 2nd 2014, 6:25pm","nest":0,"liked":false,"member":{"wally_id":"1082747","email_settings":"4294967295","email":"dbind4@aol.com","address":"DougB","gender":"u","member_id":"44418","member_name":"DougB","avatar_location":"av-44418.jpg","avatar_type":"upload","avatar":"\/\/www.runnerspace.com\/forum\/uploads\/av-44418.jpg"},"can_delete":false,"item_id":302788,"item_type":"news","pb_image":"\/\/www.runnerspace.com\/forum\/uploads\/av-44418.jpg","pb_title":"DougB","pb_url":"profile.php?member_id=44418","pb_url_dns":"https:\/\/DougB.runnerspace.com\/","pb_wally_id":"1082747"},"1182399":{"pb_id":"50627","pb_type":"members","likes":"0","parent_id":"0","pid":"1182399","comment_id":"1182399","member_id":"50627","comment":"
\n
\nSo yes... there is a serious possibility of Brea gaming the system here.
\n
\nThe team that is screwed because of this is Kamiakin WA, which was the next team on the bubble, not Great Oak.
<\/div><\/div>
\n
\nDo you have a link to the interviews (apparently there are multiple?) saying he'd go to NXN if his team qualified?","date_added":"Dec 2nd 2014, 6:20pm","nest":0,"liked":false,"member":[],"can_delete":false,"item_id":302788,"item_type":"news","pb_image":"i\/no_avatar.png","pb_title":"cerutty fan","pb_url":"profile.php?member_id=50627","pb_url_dns":"https:\/\/www.runnerspace.com\/profile.php?member_id=50627","pb_wally_id":"1212787"},"1182395":{"pb_id":"4588","pb_type":"members","likes":"0","parent_id":"0","pid":"1182395","comment_id":"1182395","member_id":"4588","comment":"
<\/div><\/div>
\n
\nI agree that it's not. Put some parameters around it and require it of all participants and I've got no problem with it.","date_added":"Dec 2nd 2014, 5:53pm","nest":0,"liked":false,"member":{"wally_id":"388","email_settings":"8191","email":"scott.joerger@gmail.com","address":"ScottJoerger","gender":"m","member_id":"4588","member_name":"Scott Joerger","avatar_location":"av-4588.jpg","avatar_type":"upload","avatar":"\/\/www.runnerspace.com\/forum\/uploads\/av-4588.jpg"},"can_delete":false,"item_id":302788,"item_type":"news","pb_image":"\/\/www.runnerspace.com\/forum\/uploads\/av-4588.jpg","pb_title":"Scott Joerger","pb_url":"profile.php?member_id=4588","pb_url_dns":"https:\/\/ScottJoerger.runnerspace.com\/","pb_wally_id":"388"},"1182393":{"pb_id":"44418","pb_type":"members","likes":"0","parent_id":"0","pid":"1182393","comment_id":"1182393","member_id":"44418","comment":"A truthful declaration of what your intentions are in a timely manner is not unreasonable.","date_added":"Dec 2nd 2014, 5:50pm","nest":0,"liked":false,"member":{"wally_id":"1082747","email_settings":"4294967295","email":"dbind4@aol.com","address":"DougB","gender":"u","member_id":"44418","member_name":"DougB","avatar_location":"av-44418.jpg","avatar_type":"upload","avatar":"\/\/www.runnerspace.com\/forum\/uploads\/av-44418.jpg"},"can_delete":false,"item_id":302788,"item_type":"news","pb_image":"\/\/www.runnerspace.com\/forum\/uploads\/av-44418.jpg","pb_title":"DougB","pb_url":"profile.php?member_id=44418","pb_url_dns":"https:\/\/DougB.runnerspace.com\/","pb_wally_id":"1082747"},"1182392":{"pb_id":"4588","pb_type":"members","likes":"0","parent_id":"0","pid":"1182392","comment_id":"1182392","member_id":"4588","comment":"
\n
\nSo yes... there is a serious possibility of Brea gaming the system<\/strong> here.
\n
\nThe team that is screwed because of this is Kamiakin WA, which was the next team on the bubble, not Great Oak.
<\/div><\/div>
\n
\nBut does "the system" really rely on what a kid says in an interview? If every athlete had to sign a statement of intent or something, I could see that as a "system" (and an administrative nightmare). But even then it's a slippery slope - where do you draw that line? Every #1? #2? Nationally ranked athletes?
\n
\nPerhaps Brea took advantage of the cards they were dealt, but don't blame them - change the rules.","date_added":"Dec 2nd 2014, 5:36pm","nest":0,"liked":false,"member":{"wally_id":"388","email_settings":"8191","email":"scott.joerger@gmail.com","address":"ScottJoerger","gender":"m","member_id":"4588","member_name":"Scott Joerger","avatar_location":"av-4588.jpg","avatar_type":"upload","avatar":"\/\/www.runnerspace.com\/forum\/uploads\/av-4588.jpg"},"can_delete":false,"item_id":302788,"item_type":"news","pb_image":"\/\/www.runnerspace.com\/forum\/uploads\/av-4588.jpg","pb_title":"Scott Joerger","pb_url":"profile.php?member_id=4588","pb_url_dns":"https:\/\/ScottJoerger.runnerspace.com\/","pb_wally_id":"388"},"1182390":{"pb_id":"44418","pb_type":"members","likes":"0","parent_id":"0","pid":"1182390","comment_id":"1182390","member_id":"44418","comment":"When the committee convened on Saturday night, according to sources, Tamagno was confirmed for NXN. He had previously given interviews that said he would go with his team to NXN.
\n
\nSo yes... there is a serious possibility of Brea gaming the system here.
\n
\nThe team that is screwed because of this is Kamiakin WA, which was the next team on the bubble, not Great Oak.","date_added":"Dec 2nd 2014, 5:09pm","nest":0,"liked":false,"member":{"wally_id":"1082747","email_settings":"4294967295","email":"dbind4@aol.com","address":"DougB","gender":"u","member_id":"44418","member_name":"DougB","avatar_location":"av-44418.jpg","avatar_type":"upload","avatar":"\/\/www.runnerspace.com\/forum\/uploads\/av-44418.jpg"},"can_delete":false,"item_id":302788,"item_type":"news","pb_image":"\/\/www.runnerspace.com\/forum\/uploads\/av-44418.jpg","pb_title":"DougB","pb_url":"profile.php?member_id=44418","pb_url_dns":"https:\/\/DougB.runnerspace.com\/","pb_wally_id":"1082747"},"1182359":{"pb_id":"43715","pb_type":"members","likes":"0","parent_id":"0","pid":"1182359","comment_id":"1182359","member_id":"43715","comment":"
<\/div><\/div>
\n
\nI don't think an official one was ever posted.
\n
\nHowever, the power merge scores are second to the head to head results. All the other teams ahead of Great Oak in the power merge would be Division 1 teams they beat, meaning that Great Oak would be considered the third California team if Tamagno wasn't included.
\n
\nIt's a shame that Nike didn't catch this in time, or if they did it's a catastrophe that they invited a team to NXN based on a lineup that won't be at NXN. The California situation is already less than ideal, but it makes absolute sense to ensure that the teams that are in the running to go to Portland are going to be there intact, and are wanting to go, before inviting them to NXN based on the results of the state meet. And unfortunately, I'm pretty sure it's the latter as Tamagno would have been an individual qualifier for NXN, so I have to think the CA Nike rep talked to Tamagno to see if he was going to NXN even before the team situation had even begun to get sorted out (Tamagno had the #7 time at the state meet, and the last individual qualifier was #8 Jacob Ogden).","date_added":"Dec 2nd 2014, 4:21pm","nest":0,"liked":false,"member":[],"can_delete":false,"item_id":302788,"item_type":"news","pb_image":"\/\/www.runnerspace.com\/forum\/uploads\/av-43715.jpg","pb_title":"watchout","pb_url":"profile.php?member_id=43715","pb_url_dns":"https:\/\/www.runnerspace.com\/profile.php?member_id=43715","pb_wally_id":"1073498"},"1182357":{"pb_id":"4588","pb_type":"members","likes":"0","parent_id":"0","pid":"1182357","comment_id":"1182357","member_id":"4588","comment":"
\n
\n1. This has hardly been beaten to death , how could I have done that yet as I barely knew all of this , hahaha.
\n
\n2. Running the State Championship and winning and then notifying NXN properly , would <\/strong>have made it easy for NXN to evaluate them with him out.
\n
\n3. THAT should <\/strong>have been done anyway
\n
\n4. Palimmer and I are buddies, I hope anyway, but I disagree slightly on this TEAM over anything else philosophy ALL the time , especially for seniors , and here is why. Many times a guy is asked to scarifice even clear title wins to run with the pack or PULL guys out and along. I think when we get to this point and it is known up front, I have way less issues with a guy running FL than I used to.
\n
\n
\n5. NXN, if you cannot see yourself as a top 1-2-3 that with some luck you could <\/strong>win? I think it's okay for a kid to run FL, although , in THIS case, he is NOT a senior is he, he is a junior and for that reason, he could <\/strong>wait , run one for the team and then opt out his senior year. All that happened here was an avoidable mess, part of that is on NXN, part on kid\/team. But XNX should <\/strong>have a policy clearly in place that says if one of your season long top 3 opts out and is NOT injured, his impact on the team's qualifications are subject to review.
\n
\nIn fact I like that so much, that is how it should <\/strong>read!!
<\/div><\/div>
\n
\nCoulda Shoulda Woulda - These are all opinions and possibilities. My point is the broken system made this situation inevitable.","date_added":"Dec 2nd 2014, 4:15pm","nest":0,"liked":false,"member":{"wally_id":"388","email_settings":"8191","email":"scott.joerger@gmail.com","address":"ScottJoerger","gender":"m","member_id":"4588","member_name":"Scott Joerger","avatar_location":"av-4588.jpg","avatar_type":"upload","avatar":"\/\/www.runnerspace.com\/forum\/uploads\/av-4588.jpg"},"can_delete":false,"item_id":302788,"item_type":"news","pb_image":"\/\/www.runnerspace.com\/forum\/uploads\/av-4588.jpg","pb_title":"Scott Joerger","pb_url":"profile.php?member_id=4588","pb_url_dns":"https:\/\/ScottJoerger.runnerspace.com\/","pb_wally_id":"388"},"1182356":{"pb_id":"4588","pb_type":"members","likes":"0","parent_id":"0","pid":"1182356","comment_id":"1182356","member_id":"4588","comment":"
<\/div><\/div>
\n
\nYes, my calculation was off the top 20. I just didn't see the official one.","date_added":"Dec 2nd 2014, 4:05pm","nest":0,"liked":false,"member":{"wally_id":"388","email_settings":"8191","email":"scott.joerger@gmail.com","address":"ScottJoerger","gender":"m","member_id":"4588","member_name":"Scott Joerger","avatar_location":"av-4588.jpg","avatar_type":"upload","avatar":"\/\/www.runnerspace.com\/forum\/uploads\/av-4588.jpg"},"can_delete":false,"item_id":302788,"item_type":"news","pb_image":"\/\/www.runnerspace.com\/forum\/uploads\/av-4588.jpg","pb_title":"Scott Joerger","pb_url":"profile.php?member_id=4588","pb_url_dns":"https:\/\/ScottJoerger.runnerspace.com\/","pb_wally_id":"388"},"1182355":{"pb_id":"45400","pb_type":"members","likes":"0","parent_id":"0","pid":"1182355","comment_id":"1182355","member_id":"45400","comment":"
\n
\nMy very unofficial merge has them 5th
\nhttp:\/\/www.runnerspa...dpost&p=1180632<\/a>
\n
\nRecord Timing's Mega-merge show's them 6th:
\nhttp:\/\/rtspt.com\/eve...xc2014\/boys.htm<\/a>
<\/div><\/div>
\n
\nNot that I've seen, Scott. Sometimes a version of it has appeared at Hank Lawson's Lynbrook Cross Country site. Easy enough to calculate - simply take the top 16 (or is it 20?) teams in the mega-merge and perform what Rich G describes as a power merge.","date_added":"Dec 2nd 2014, 4:02pm","nest":0,"liked":false,"member":[],"can_delete":false,"item_id":302788,"item_type":"news","pb_image":"i\/no_avatar.png","pb_title":"Greg Beal","pb_url":"profile.php?member_id=45400","pb_url_dns":"https:\/\/Greg-Beal.runnerspace.com\/","pb_wally_id":"1108424"},"1182354":{"pb_id":"45400","pb_type":"members","likes":"0","parent_id":"0","pid":"1182354","comment_id":"1182354","member_id":"45400","comment":"
\n
\nTons of races all year in different groupings are run with temp. variations from AM to PM
\n
\nThis is over analysis and excuse making disguised.
<\/div><\/div>
\n
\nGuess you've never noticed the difference running a race (or workout) in 50 degrees in the morning and 65 degrees in the afternoon. Maybe 5-10 seconds difference in a 5K is not something you care about.
\n
\nYou're right - meets are run over long periods with changing weather and temp conditions - but it doesn't matter so long as each race is a separate, fair competition.
\n
\nIn California, different conditions only matter in terms of NXN qualifications.
\n
\nSince I don't root for any of the D1 teams, I'm not making excuses, just pointing out that the situation is considerably less than ideal.","date_added":"Dec 2nd 2014, 3:58pm","nest":0,"liked":false,"member":[],"can_delete":false,"item_id":302788,"item_type":"news","pb_image":"i\/no_avatar.png","pb_title":"Greg Beal","pb_url":"profile.php?member_id=45400","pb_url_dns":"https:\/\/Greg-Beal.runnerspace.com\/","pb_wally_id":"1108424"},"1182353":{"pb_id":"68733","pb_type":"members","likes":"0","parent_id":"0","pid":"1182353","comment_id":"1182353","member_id":"68733","comment":"Okay a couple of things.
\n
\n1. This has hardly been beaten to death , how could I have done that yet as I barely knew all of this , hahaha.
\n
\n2. Running the State Championship and winning and then notifying NXN properly , would have made it easy for NXN to evaluate them with him out.
\n
\n3. THAT should have been done anyway
\n
\n4. Palimmer and I are buddies, I hope anyway, but I disagree slightly on this TEAM over anything else philosophy ALL the time , especially for seniors , and here is why. Many times a guy is asked to scarifice even clear title wins to run with the pack or PULL guys out and along. I think when we get to this point and it is known up front, I have way less issues with a guy running FL than I used to.
\n
\n
\n5. NXN, if you cannot see yourself as a top 1-2-3 that with some luck you could win? I think it's okay for a kid to run FL, although , in THIS case, he is NOT a senior is he, he is a junior and for that reason, he could wait , run one for the team and then opt out his senior year. All that happened here was an avoidable mess, part of that is on NXN, part on kid\/team. But XNX should have a policy clearly in place that says if one of your season long top 3 opts out and is NOT injured, his impact on the team's qualifications are subject to review.
\n
\nIn fact I like that so much, that is how it should read!!","date_added":"Dec 2nd 2014, 3:50pm","nest":0,"liked":false,"member":[],"can_delete":false,"item_id":302788,"item_type":"news","pb_image":"i\/no_avatar.png","pb_title":"King999","pb_url":"profile.php?member_id=68733","pb_url_dns":"https:\/\/King999.runnerspace.com\/","pb_wally_id":"1493915"},"1182347":{"pb_id":"4588","pb_type":"members","likes":"0","parent_id":"0","pid":"1182347","comment_id":"1182347","member_id":"4588","comment":"
\n
\nI have to give credit to Maton and Summit HS. He made his decision long before the NXN Regional. Their team made it in on their own merits at Boise. I think this thing with Brea Olinda was in the works before we got to state. I'll keep my other opinions about this to myself.
<\/div><\/div>
\n
\nDid the official NXN merge get published somewhere and I didn't see it? I see multiple references to Great Oak being left out but I haven't seen any evidence the they were top 4 in the merge.
\n
\nMy very unofficial merge has them 5th
\nhttp:\/\/www.runnerspa...dpost&p=1180632<\/a>
\n
\nRecord Timing's Mega-merge show's them 6th:
\nhttp:\/\/rtspt.com\/eve...xc2014\/boys.htm<\/a>
\n
\nI agree that Great Oak would have been the best candidate for an at-large choice based on early season performances, but I'm not certain they would have been in a position to win one based on the merges I see. If there is better information out there, please enlighten me.
\n
\nAs for Maton and Summit, it's only fair to point out that their situation was different - they went to the NXN regional specifically to qualify, and to make the decision whether or not to compete with that in mind. In California qualifying is a by-product of the state meet. It's only natural not to make a final decision until the deadline is at hand. I think we need to be careful not to condemn 17 year olds for not making the decision we think they should have, when they are working fully within the structure they got stuck with.","date_added":"Dec 2nd 2014, 3:20pm","nest":0,"liked":false,"member":{"wally_id":"388","email_settings":"8191","email":"scott.joerger@gmail.com","address":"ScottJoerger","gender":"m","member_id":"4588","member_name":"Scott Joerger","avatar_location":"av-4588.jpg","avatar_type":"upload","avatar":"\/\/www.runnerspace.com\/forum\/uploads\/av-4588.jpg"},"can_delete":false,"item_id":302788,"item_type":"news","pb_image":"\/\/www.runnerspace.com\/forum\/uploads\/av-4588.jpg","pb_title":"Scott Joerger","pb_url":"profile.php?member_id=4588","pb_url_dns":"https:\/\/ScottJoerger.runnerspace.com\/","pb_wally_id":"388"},"1182343":{"pb_id":"42240","pb_type":"members","likes":"0","parent_id":"0","pid":"1182343","comment_id":"1182343","member_id":"42240","comment":"
\nIt's team first....individual accomplishments second....
<\/div><\/div>
\n
\nBrea Olinda would have definitely been a top five team if they were running with Tamango in NXN. Looking at their numbers now, I doubt if they will crack the top 10. There is nothing that can be done with how the teams from California are selected especially right after their state meet. It is just the way it is. I feel bad for Great Oak not getting the opportunity to compete.
\n
\nI have to give credit to Maton and Summit HS. He made his decision long before the NXN Regional. Their team made it in on their own merits at Boise. I think this thing with Brea Olinda was in the works before we got to state. I'll keep my other opinions about this to myself.","date_added":"Dec 2nd 2014, 3:02pm","nest":0,"liked":false,"member":{"wally_id":"1019712","email_settings":"4294967295","email":"newman.dyestatil@gmail.com","address":"ILXCTF","gender":"u","member_id":"42240","member_name":"ILXCTF - Mike Newman","avatar_location":"av-42240.jpg","avatar_type":"upload","avatar":"\/\/www.runnerspace.com\/forum\/uploads\/av-42240.jpg"},"can_delete":false,"item_id":302788,"item_type":"news","pb_image":"\/\/www.runnerspace.com\/forum\/uploads\/av-42240.jpg","pb_title":"ILXCTF - Mike Newman","pb_url":"profile.php?member_id=42240","pb_url_dns":"https:\/\/ILXCTF.runnerspace.com\/","pb_wally_id":"1019712"},"1182342":{"pb_id":"4588","pb_type":"members","likes":"0","parent_id":"0","pid":"1182342","comment_id":"1182342","member_id":"4588","comment":"I think we need to keep the Tamagno \/ Brea Olinda situation in perspective. It's not as if Austin went to the NXN regional to help his team qualify just to walk away. He went to the CA championships and lead his team to the D3 state championships - no doubt a season long goal - and they did fulfill that goal as a team. Now he is going on to run at Foot Locker to compete for a national title which has been a post-season goal of his.
\n
\nKeep in mind that Brea Olinda is a top-10, maybe top-5, CA team without Austin Tamagno. However, it's pretty clear that they would not likely have made the NXN cut without him.
\n
\nThere two are major problems contributing to this situation (already beaten to death on these boards):
\n
\n1. There is no unified national championship. <\/strong>
\n
\nFootlocker has a long tradition and I don't blame Austin for wanting to go after that title. NXN is a great event which is building it's own tradition. Doesn't Foot Locker sell a gazillion Nikes? It would seem that these two could get together and make one supermeet.
\n
\n2. There is no stand-alone California qualifier. <\/strong>
\n
\nThe CIF merge solution is flawed. Using ndirect competition (merge) to determine the NXN slots, and weather and competition differences between the races affecting the qualifiers. I think everyone, including most Californians would like to see a better system to qualify for NXN. But the system we have is a product of the varied timing of the state meets and there is no easy solution, other than perhaps pushing NXN back a week (not good for so many states already waiting weeks).
\n
\nThere was no underhandedness going on here - the system and rules were not exploited. Tamagno and Brea did their best and are pursuing the opportunities offered to them. My understanding is that Austin has the support of his coaches and teammates to pursue FL. Still, I can see how this is troubling - especially to those teams that might have gone has Austin not competed in the qualifier.
\n
\nShould there be changes as a result of this? Probably, but I don't think it's simply telling a team their #1 runner has to run or they are out. I think the real solution is fixing 1 and 2 above, which I don't think we will see anytime soon.","date_added":"Dec 2nd 2014, 2:51pm","nest":0,"liked":false,"member":{"wally_id":"388","email_settings":"8191","email":"scott.joerger@gmail.com","address":"ScottJoerger","gender":"m","member_id":"4588","member_name":"Scott Joerger","avatar_location":"av-4588.jpg","avatar_type":"upload","avatar":"\/\/www.runnerspace.com\/forum\/uploads\/av-4588.jpg"},"can_delete":false,"item_id":302788,"item_type":"news","pb_image":"\/\/www.runnerspace.com\/forum\/uploads\/av-4588.jpg","pb_title":"Scott Joerger","pb_url":"profile.php?member_id=4588","pb_url_dns":"https:\/\/ScottJoerger.runnerspace.com\/","pb_wally_id":"388"},"1182340":{"pb_id":"70121","pb_type":"members","likes":"0","parent_id":"0","pid":"1182340","comment_id":"1182340","member_id":"70121","comment":"
\nIt's team first....individual accomplishments second....
<\/div><\/div>
\n
\nworse than leaving team, is leaving team in situation where they are resented - not only by great oak, but by all that would want the best representation of the state at NXN
\n
\nof course he wanted to win a state championship and had to run - it is state champ first and nxn qualifier 2nd.
\n
\nwhy couldnt nike just make the correct call to pick next team....did they not know?","date_added":"Dec 2nd 2014, 2:39pm","nest":0,"liked":false,"member":[],"can_delete":false,"item_id":302788,"item_type":"news","pb_image":"i\/no_avatar.png","pb_title":"BruceS","pb_url":"profile.php?member_id=70121","pb_url_dns":"https:\/\/BruceS.runnerspace.com\/","pb_wally_id":"1535218"},"1182337":{"pb_id":"3357","pb_type":"members","likes":"0","parent_id":"0","pid":"1182337","comment_id":"1182337","member_id":"3357","comment":"I have some serious misgivings regarding Brea Olinda's presence at NXN.....forget about leaving your team at the eleventh hour.....that is not the issue...in most observers minds
\nIt's team first....individual accomplishments second....","date_added":"Dec 2nd 2014, 1:53pm","nest":0,"liked":false,"member":[],"can_delete":false,"item_id":302788,"item_type":"news","pb_image":"i\/no_avatar.gif","pb_title":"palimmer","pb_url":"profile.php?member_id=3357","pb_url_dns":"https:\/\/palimmer.runnerspace.com\/","pb_wally_id":"4758"},"1182333":{"pb_id":"68733","pb_type":"members","likes":"0","parent_id":"0","pid":"1182333","comment_id":"1182333","member_id":"68733","comment":"I meant , not DQ'ed, just not sent to NXN.
\n
\nIf you take out his low stick, they are a well beaten third by 30 points?
\n
\n
\nI do not see the equity in this at all.
\n
\nWould some other team be eliminated or not qualified because of this? Where is the uproar, or should there be none.?","date_added":"Dec 2nd 2014, 1:09pm","nest":0,"liked":false,"member":[],"can_delete":false,"item_id":302788,"item_type":"news","pb_image":"i\/no_avatar.png","pb_title":"King999","pb_url":"profile.php?member_id=68733","pb_url_dns":"https:\/\/King999.runnerspace.com\/","pb_wally_id":"1493915"},"1182327":{"pb_id":"68733","pb_type":"members","likes":"0","parent_id":"0","pid":"1182327","comment_id":"1182327","member_id":"68733","comment":"First of all these absurd weather calculations especially for Calif. running are just that, a waste of time and absurd.
\n
\nTons of races all year in different groupings are run with temp. variations from AM to PM
\n
\nThis is over analysis and excuse making disguised.
\n
\n
\nOn this Tamgano thing? That team should be DQ'ed unless they clearly would have Q'ed without him.","date_added":"Dec 2nd 2014, 1:03pm","nest":0,"liked":false,"member":[],"can_delete":false,"item_id":302788,"item_type":"news","pb_image":"i\/no_avatar.png","pb_title":"King999","pb_url":"profile.php?member_id=68733","pb_url_dns":"https:\/\/King999.runnerspace.com\/","pb_wally_id":"1493915"},"1182258":{"pb_id":"45400","pb_type":"members","likes":"0","parent_id":"0","pid":"1182258","comment_id":"1182258","member_id":"45400","comment":"
\n
\nOn average, upward changes in temperature beginning at 60 degrees affect all runners to some extent (per studies done by Daniels and others).
\n
\n
\n
\n15:40 @ 50 degree heat index (Division 2\/3 boys races were at ~52 degrees w\/ a dew point of 37.9 according to Wunderground) is NO CHANGE from the 15:40 average.
\n15:40 @ 63 degree heat index (Division 1 boys race was at ~64.9 degrees w\/ a dew point of 37.0 according to Wunderground) is about halfway between the 60 and 65 degree heat index marks for 15:40 and 15:47. With the shown linear progression of 7 seconds per 5 degrees w\/ 60 degrees being the +0 point, that would suggest an adjustment of 4 seconds.
\n
\nI don't think that's really a reliable comparison, though, particularly because it's a linear progression<\/span> (I would definitely think that going from, say, 60-70 degrees would be a much lower jump than 70-80 degrees, for example). Even if it was, though, it wouldn't make a difference in the team finish order. Here's a reminder of the CA#3 and (placed) CA#4 teams:
\n
\nGreat Oak - Jurupa Hills
\n15:24.3 - 15:07.5
\n15:36.0 - 15:19.2
\n15:36.7 - 15:35.9
\n15:56.4 - 15:55.9
\n16:12.1 - 16:09.9
\n
\n... the Division 1 race would have to be adjusted by MORE than 5 seconds in order for Great Oak to pass Jurupa Hills (5 second change for D1 would result in a tie if it was a 20 team power merge).
\n
\nThat being said, I think we can all agree that it would be ideal if California had a "Championship" division (or a single class state meet, though that would add an additional week to the post-season schedule unless the SS fit 35 teams on the starting line and redid the league structure)
<\/div><\/div>
\n
\nThere are several calculators similar to the one you found. Here's the one from the Jack Daniels' Run Smart site - Daniels' calculator.<\/a>
\n
\nUsing the 63 degree heat index you identified, the Daniels calculator shows a difference of six seconds at 15:40.
\n
\nAccording to Wunderground, the wind was calm at 8:30 and 9:00 am and was 5.8 mph at 11:53. Since the course is essentially out and back, the wind would have had at least a slight negative effect overall for the later races.
\n
\nSuch calculators also don't take into account the difference between a sunny and cloudy day or a course in the direct sun or one in the shade.","date_added":"Dec 2nd 2014, 5:10am","nest":0,"liked":false,"member":[],"can_delete":false,"item_id":302788,"item_type":"news","pb_image":"i\/no_avatar.png","pb_title":"Greg Beal","pb_url":"profile.php?member_id=45400","pb_url_dns":"https:\/\/Greg-Beal.runnerspace.com\/","pb_wally_id":"1108424"},"1182059":{"pb_id":"43715","pb_type":"members","likes":"0","parent_id":"0","pid":"1182059","comment_id":"1182059","member_id":"43715","comment":"Though I'm sure it'll change in a few days, here's a comparison of the # of Doug's Top-30 athletes that have qualified for NXN and FLN\/FLW:
\n
\nBoys \/ Girls
\nNXN: 17 \/ 19
\nFLN: 5 \/ 8
\nFLW: 5 \/ 2
\n
\n... that has to be a record low for FLN? though it does fit in with the national average of ~2\/3 of the top state finishers going to NXR (obviously higher in some areas and lower in others -- NY averaged about 80% NXN for example).
\n
\nFLN has the clear advantage this year in US Top-10 runners though at 6-4 on both sides.
\n
\n
\nAlso,
\n
\n
\n
\nWhen Ventura and Jurupa Hills ran at 8:30 and Brea at 9:00, the temps were near 50 and the sun was low in the sky. When Great Oak, Dana Hills, Madera South and Burroughs ran at 11:45, the temps were closer to 65 and the sun was overhead. The Jack Daniels temperature effect calculator suggests that a 15:35 for the early races is the equivalent of a 15:44 for the later race. Had the D1 race been run early in the day, overall field times would been faster and the results of the power merge that determined the NXN selection would have changed.
\n
\nOf course, the results are what they are - and the CIF handles this situation by rotating the races year to year so that divisional race times even out over a period of years. If it were not for NXN selection, this disparity wouldn't actually matter.
\n
\n(A side note: the girls D1 race was the last of the day and was the most affected by higher temps and the dusty course. Luckily for the selection process this year, the second place D1 team wasn't close enough to be in consideration for NXN.)
<\/div><\/div>
\n
\nI haven't really ever paid attention to any "temperature effect calculators", but I can't imagine 65 degree temperatures would be effecting California runners that much. Maybe if they're acclimated to 40 degree temperatures, sure, but that's not the case for any SoCal teams.
\n
\nWhat is the Jack Daniels temperature effect calculator you mention? Google led me to this<\/a>, and in combination with Wunderground<\/a> and this<\/a> for a Heat Index calculator this is what I get for the "temperature effect calculator" numbers...
\n
\n15:40 @ 50 degree heat index (Division 2\/3 boys races were at ~52 degrees w\/ a dew point of 37.9 according to Wunderground) is NO CHANGE from the 15:40 average.
\n15:40 @ 63 degree heat index (Division 1 boys race was at ~64.9 degrees w\/ a dew point of 37.0 according to Wunderground) is about halfway between the 60 and 65 degree heat index marks for 15:40 and 15:47. With the shown linear progression of 7 seconds per 5 degrees w\/ 60 degrees being the +0 point, that would suggest an adjustment of 4 seconds.
\n
\nI don't think that's really a reliable comparison, though, particularly because it's a linear progression<\/span> (I would definitely think that going from, say, 60-70 degrees would be a much lower jump than 70-80 degrees, for example). Even if it was, though, it wouldn't make a difference in the team finish order. Here's a reminder of the CA#3 and (placed) CA#4 teams:
\n
\nGreat Oak - Jurupa Hills
\n15:24.3 - 15:07.5
\n15:36.0 - 15:19.2
\n15:36.7 - 15:35.9
\n15:56.4 - 15:55.9
\n16:12.1 - 16:09.9
\n
\n... the Division 1 race would have to be adjusted by MORE than 5 seconds in order for Great Oak to pass Jurupa Hills (5 second change for D1 would result in a tie if it was a 20 team power merge).
\n
\nThat being said, I think we can all agree that it would be ideal if California had a "Championship" division (or a single class state meet, though that would add an additional week to the post-season schedule unless the SS fit 35 teams on the starting line and redid the league structure)","date_added":"Dec 1st 2014, 8:37pm","nest":0,"liked":false,"member":[],"can_delete":false,"item_id":302788,"item_type":"news","pb_image":"\/\/www.runnerspace.com\/forum\/uploads\/av-43715.jpg","pb_title":"watchout","pb_url":"profile.php?member_id=43715","pb_url_dns":"https:\/\/www.runnerspace.com\/profile.php?member_id=43715","pb_wally_id":"1073498"},"1182052":{"pb_id":"43675","pb_type":"members","likes":"0","parent_id":"0","pid":"1182052","comment_id":"1182052","member_id":"43675","comment":"